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Casey

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Re: Medinah Minerals and Cerro Dorado - The Main Discussion
« Reply #8790 on: March 11, 2010, 11:17:50 PM »

Looks like another weekend shot, anxiously waiting around to hear something ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------anything. Kirk


Would be great if it was the LAST weekend we waited !
any thoughts if it is ??
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themetallurgist

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Re: Medinah Minerals and Cerro Dorado - The Main Discussion
« Reply #8791 on: March 11, 2010, 11:20:32 PM »

Several reasons.

One thing we do know..the SEC put a grandfather clause in SHO for the pre-existing naked short position as they were worried about market turmoil.  In other words, they very well knew about how big the existing short positions were..and were worried that long investors would make a lot of money-can't have that happen! :)

Here's something else to ponder, note the implications of "temporary" equals "years".

"The stock borrow program at the NSCC (a subsidiary of the DTCC) enables that entity to borrow shares from an anonymous pool, and effect delivery to the buyer. The NSCC then creates a debit in the seller's account, and holds the cash from the sale (minus commissions, of course) as collateral. It charges a fee to do that, and the program was designed to accommodate "temporary" delivery failures - but has been abused over the years, as "temporary" has no fixed definition, and some unscrupulous hedge funds think "temporary" means years."

Then we have what Doc posted yesterday:

"Nobody covers though.  Why?  Because it costs money to cover and due to corruption on Wall Street you can gain access to the funds of investors even if you sell shares that don't exist and never deliver that which you sell.  These crooks never, never, never cover preexisting naked short positions until forced to.  Aggregate levels of prexeisting naked short positions go constantly upwards because of this."

Here's another quote:

"Once a naked short position gets to a certain level the bad guys need to naked short sell all day long just to keep the collateralization requirements tolerable for an astronomic naked short position. If they merely stopped their daily naked short position then the share price will gap upwards. It’s tough to cover an astronomic naked short positon in a market that’s already gapping upwards. After covering 10% of your naked short position the price level might be at a level wherein the collateralization requirements for the other 90% might be financially prohibitive"

Here's another quote/thought to consider from a different expert-if you cover-you have to pay taxes!

"The first being that on a naked short sale, the person who has engaged the naked short sale only has to pay taxes when or if they ever "cover" that security in the open market. As stated by the SEC, it is often not the intention of these naked short sellers to EVER cover their naked short positions. If companies declare bankruptcy, the naked short sellers never cover their positions and never pay taxes on the money they pulled out on a mark to market basis"

Here's a link that covers the topic about as concisely as you can have in this rather complicated subject:

http://www.ncans.net/intro%20to%20naked%20short%20selling.htm

Naked short selling and short selling should never be used in the same paragraph, let alone the same post.  They are night and day different (for the most part).  Short selling is totally LEGAL, where naked short selling is totally ILLEGAL.  i'm sure everyone already knows this.

The MMs have to report how many shares they short of each company.  They are required to buy those shares back within a certian time period... 2 weeks, 1 month?  i don't know for sure how long, don't care. 

MMs don't report how many shares they have naked shorted, because obviously, it's illegal.  They won't say hey SEC, I broke the law everyday for the past 10 years... and again, i'm sure everyone knows this.  nobody will ever know how many naked shares are floating around, and as the doc says, MMs don't care b/c there's 99% of all other companies that will die off to make money from.  i'm not even convinced MMs would EVER cover the naked shorts, but like i said, we're talking about the legal shorting SHO list, not the illegal naked shorts.

About the SHO list.  There is no way they can short MDMN or any other company 50% of the daily volume EVERYDAY.  They have to purchase the shares they shorted within a certain timeframe or they are fined.  The volume showing the purchase of shorted shares is never there.

Example - Over the course of 1 week, if they short everyday, monday-thursday 50% of the daily volume (say 2M shares) of MDMN, they would have to repurchase 4M shorted shares above the average daily volume on friday, for a total volume of 6M that day.  You just don't ever see that volume in pinkies or the fortune 500 companies.

let's look at today's data on Apple from the SHO list - 3,193,786 shares shorted on 6,685,671 volume.  First of all, the real volume today reported by Yahoo was over 14M.  The shares short as reported by Yahoo (under Key Statistics) also doesn't even come close to this constant shorting trend 50% everyday. 

none of these numbers posted by the SHO list make sense.  i don't know how to use that data b/c i have no idea how they got it or what exactly they are counting.  the only people that use it are the guys who trade penny stocks and want to add more sugar to the kool-aid!   :P    :-*

You made a LOT of mistakes in your comments.  I will let Doc correct you if he feels like it.

One thing worth pointing however, is that Medinah is NOT on the SEC SHO list as it is not a reporting company. (It was on the list briefly back in 2005 by mistake.) The "list" of companies that short selling data is available for..is not the same as the SEC SHO lists which requires certain actions be undertaken if a company stays on the list.

i have zero confidence in the numbers that webpage provides... the numbers don't add up.  if i'm wrong that's fine, i'm not a stubborn guy, i would love to hear from the doc to know what part is right or wrong. 
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Huard

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Re: Medinah Minerals and Cerro Dorado - The Main Discussion
« Reply #8792 on: March 12, 2010, 12:15:29 AM »

It doesen't matter if we are short five hundred million or 2 billion,once the deal is anounced this stock will explode,with everybody buying the stock like crazy.It will drive the price up and stay up forcing the the shorters to have to cover there positions,which means buying real certs in the open market whatever the price may be.This stock will be a hell of a good time once good news hits,I just hope it is within the next week.
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Mike Gold

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Re: Medinah Minerals and Cerro Dorado - The Main Discussion
« Reply #8793 on: March 12, 2010, 07:08:37 AM »

"i have zero confidence in the numbers that webpage provides... the numbers don't add up.  if i'm wrong that's fine, i'm not a stubborn guy, i would love to hear from the doc to know what part is right or wrong. "

Based on what?  What numbers don't add up? You seem to imply that you have something written in stone that you use to compare the short numbers with? 

I suggest you review the attached documents and then call 1-866-776-0800 if you have any questions about exactly what the numbers represent.

FINRA seems to imply that the short numbers are actually under reported. (Note-in the context that OTC is used here-it includes Pinks.)

"Certain OTC transactions (e.g., riskless principal and agency transactions where
one member is acting on behalf of another member) are reported to FINRA in
related tape and non-tape reports. Tape reports are submitted to FINRA for
public dissemination by the appropriate exclusive Securities Information
Processor (“SIP”), while non-tape reports are submitted to FINRA, but are not
submitted to the SIP for public dissemination. FINRA will not be including nontape
reports in either the daily short sale volume file or the monthly short sale
transaction file. Accordingly, in those instances where the short sale indicator is
only included in the related non-tape report, the short sale data published in the
daily and monthly files may be under-inclusive. Similarly, the published figures
will not include odd lots since these transactions are not disseminated to the
consolidated tape."

However, one Commenter wrote the following about the short data that is posted: (I again will defer to Doc to sort this out for us if he chooses.)

"The purpose of this comment letter is to raise a concern about the data FINRA proposes to publish. The filing notes that the SEC staff stated that it believes that the publication of this data, and the resulting increased market transparency, may help bolster investor confidence and thereby help promote capital formation.

This is a laudatory goal. However, it is important to note several factors about the data that may impact market transparency, and therefore investor confidence, relating to Commission and FINRA reporting requirements. These factors are in addition to the possible data imperfections pointed out by FINRA in the filing. Presumably the intent of daily and monthly short sale information is to make transparent the volume of stock actually sold short, thus impacting the amount of short interest in the security, and reflective of the amount of stock that must be borrowed. However, with respect to broker-dealer proprietary sales, especially when acting in the capacity of market makers and block positioners, such trade volume information may not always depict accurately the quantity of stock sold short. It may tend to over-count such volume, and therefore, if published, unnecessarily impact investor confidence in an unforeseen way. To be clear, I am not suggesting that no data be published. Rather, the Commission and FINRA should consider reviewing and addressing short sale recording and reporting requirements so they are more meaningful.

One of the primary functions of broker-dealers is to act as intermediaries for investors that are buying or selling stock. Often, to carry out that function, broker-dealers will handle such investor orders on a riskless principal basis. A riskless sale is one in which a broker-dealer, after having received an order to sell a security, sells the security as principal, at the same price, to satisfy that order. Regulations require broker-dealers to mark their proprietary riskless sell order as short if they don't own the security, even if the customer order to sell the security is long. Since broker-dealers generally don’t maintain a position, a significant number of such riskless sales are reported as short, even though the customer is selling long, and the broker-dealer intends to and will buy the shares from the long selling customer immediately after the proprietary riskless short sale takes place. Typically, the broker-dealer's position is short for considerably less than one second.

I don't know how much of these short sales can be attributed to long sellers where broker-dealers are effecting the transactions on a riskless basis. But FINRA knows, or at least could make a good estimate using OATS information. An OATS execution report is required, among other things, for every customer order filled on a riskless basis and related OATS records indicate whether the investor order was for a long or short sale. It might be sensible to conduct such a review prior to publishing this data.
In addition, the SEC recently updated their guidance concerning how sell orders are to be marked, indicating that pending sell orders, but not pending buy orders, be taken into account when determining whether a sale is long or short. This guidance does not take into account the probability that the orders will be executed, or the firm's position at the time of execution. As a result of such guidance proprietary and market maker sell orders and trades will be marked short when the firm is actually long, not taking into account pending sell orders. At the end of the day, the firm may well end up flat, meaning that they have no position in the instrument.

Accordingly, the marking of sell orders as short by market makers, block positioners, and broker-dealers effecting riskless principal transactions may not always accurately reflect what has transpired, and publishing data derived from these transactions may not increase market transparency and bolster investor confidence. FINRA appears to acknowledge these constraints by noting in the filing that
"information relating to market maker [or supplemental liquidity provider] status is not currently included in the trade report submission; thus, FINRA currently is unable to separately identify the trades of equity market makers [and supplemental liquidity providers] in the monthly short sale transaction file. Therefore, the “short type” field will include a value of “S” in all cases."

FINRA knows, or can determine, whether a firm is a registered market maker in specific instruments. However, determining whether a firm is a block positioner may not be practical. A more straight-forward way of recording and reporting sell orders and transactions by market makers, supplemental liquidity providers, block positioners, and other broker-dealers effecting riskless principal transactions could be considered by the Commission and FINRA.

Since the reporting of short sales by these market participants is problematic and not useful in terms of market transparency, and since, importantly, these market participants are generally afforded exemptions from having to borrow stock when effecting short sales, all such sell orders and trades could be marked with a specific designation other than that of a long or short sale, such as a sale made or order entered in connection to market making, riskless trading, or acting as a block positioner. Then, the daily and monthly short sale information published by FINRA would in a more meaningful way reflect true short selling activity taking place."
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 07:19:39 AM by Mike Gold »
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geoly37

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Re: Medinah Minerals and Cerro Dorado - The Main Discussion
« Reply #8794 on: March 12, 2010, 09:45:51 AM »

OMG WHO CARES?? really??  WHO CARES???  Lets worry about a damn deal first everything else is JUST BS til then. If we cant close a deal nothing matters!  WORRY about a deal and stop taking tyou eye off the ball.  All you are doing is taking attention off them being down there and seeing what we can find out what ever happened to all the contacts on the ground?  The ones watching for equpiment the one who saw JJ celebrating???  Get real
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heyyyyyy KOOOOOL-AIDDDD!

Elrac

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Re: Medinah Minerals and Cerro Dorado - The Main Discussion
« Reply #8795 on: March 12, 2010, 10:01:09 AM »

I agree with George.Without a signed deal talking about NSS is just spinning your wheels!
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Mike Gold

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Re: Medinah Minerals and Cerro Dorado - The Main Discussion
« Reply #8796 on: March 12, 2010, 10:07:53 AM »

I agree with George.Without a signed deal talking about NSS is just spinning your wheels!

Trying to figure out the size of the short position, the regulatory frame work around it, the if/when/how they will cover will have more of an impact on the share price than the actual deal itself.  There is no doubt of this.

Since any short squeeze will occur basically at the same time as the pending JV deal is announced..it seems downright silly to me to defer discussion about it until later as you and George seem to suggest.







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dcbass

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Re: Medinah Minerals and Cerro Dorado - The Main Discussion
« Reply #8797 on: March 12, 2010, 10:13:53 AM »

I also want to hear about the trip and the deal.  In the meantime, concerning gold in general:

"Whoever heard of a bubble in which the major money center banks are so perilously short it? A bubble requires a broad participation and belief, and the encouragement of the market makers. And now a statement from an "SEC official" that there is a gold bubble. This, from the very people who allegedly could not see the tech, housing and credit bubbles until they fell on top of them."

http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.com/2010/03/propaganda-campaign-attempts-to-mask.html
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no news is NOT good news!

Elrac

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Re: Medinah Minerals and Cerro Dorado - The Main Discussion
« Reply #8798 on: March 12, 2010, 10:30:43 AM »

Mike,isn't there other factors besides size,that'll determine the extent of a squeeze? Doesn't management determination and having the monies to pursue Doc's plan factor in?
I've had the impression that Les is old school and figures the market will take care of itself and I remember someone saying JJ appeared bored when talking about NSS at a AGM.Not sure Gregs take on things.
I'm I wrong on my impressions of management?
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Mike Gold

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Re: Medinah Minerals and Cerro Dorado - The Main Discussion
« Reply #8799 on: March 12, 2010, 10:44:34 AM »

Mike,isn't there other factors besides size,that'll determine the extent of a squeeze? Doesn't management determination and having the monies to pursue Doc's plan factor in?
I've had the impression that Les is old school and figures the market will take care of itself and I remember someone saying JJ appeared bored when talking about NSS at a AGM.Not sure Gregs take on things.
I'm I wrong on my impressions of management?

The one thing that Medinah can and will do that would help the squeeze is buyback shares. However, the last rumors that I heard some time ago was that the JV money would not be immediately available when the deal is signed. (I think all outstanding debts would need to be paid prior to the money being readily available.) As such, the share price will likely have already done its thing prior to the buyback so one has to wonder just how many shares they will be able to buy back if the share price is North of 50 cents to begin with?

The other piece of the puzzle is the possibility(some say probability) that a buyout offer is going to be announced and potentially voted on at the next AGM. I assume that any buyout offer at this point would be a low-ball one but even a 10 to 15 cent/share offer would likely trigger the squeeze.


 
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Huard

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Re: Medinah Minerals and Cerro Dorado - The Main Discussion
« Reply #8800 on: March 12, 2010, 11:39:01 AM »

Well I was hoping for a little more excitement around here this week,but looks like this week is a bust,any thoughts on next week,the boys are coming home wednesday I believe,do you think we will something prior,or we will we get an update late next week?Any one heard anything about an agm date being set?
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The Rod

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Re: Medinah Minerals and Cerro Dorado - The Main Discussion
« Reply #8801 on: March 12, 2010, 11:41:17 AM »

Mike,isn't there other factors besides size,that'll determine the extent of a squeeze? Doesn't management determination and having the monies to pursue Doc's plan factor in?
I've had the impression that Les is old school and figures the market will take care of itself and I remember someone saying JJ appeared bored when talking about NSS at a AGM.Not sure Gregs take on things.
I'm I wrong on my impressions of management?

The one thing that Medinah can and will do that would help the squeeze is buyback shares. However, the last rumors that I heard some time ago was that the JV money would not be immediately available when the deal is signed. (I think all outstanding debts would need to be paid prior to the money being readily available.) As such, the share price will likely have already done its thing prior to the buyback so one has to wonder just how many shares they will be able to buy back if the share price is North of 50 cents to begin with?

The other piece of the puzzle is the possibility(some say probability) that a buyout offer is going to be announced and potentially voted on at the next AGM. I assume that any buyout offer at this point would be a low-ball one but even a 10 to 15 cent/share offer would likely trigger the squeeze.

I am wondering... If/When the share price rises what incentive do the shorters have to cover the shares ?

If they can now get away with the amount of shares currently shorted,  why not continue that amount even if the price rises ?  Will there be a government agency / SEC / etc. that will mandate that the short shares be covered ?  Or will each brokerage house start demanding the certs ?

The other question to be answered would be what happens to the shareholders that have bought 'fictional' shares , i.e. shares that have been naked shorted or 'borrowed' when no real shares exist to lend.

Perhaps if each of us called our brokers and asked them to investigate the validity of the shares in our account, a ripple effect may ensue where the shorters have to start covering.

I have heard it stated in several posts that we (the posters) as a group have upwards of tens, if not hundreds of millions of shares.  This would wield some serious clout.


Mike, Bill & others ... do you think it would be worth it to email the posters and ask them if they would want to call their brokers ?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 11:49:36 AM by The Rod »
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brecciaboy

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Re: Medinah Minerals and Cerro Dorado - The Main Discussion
« Reply #8802 on: March 12, 2010, 11:54:56 AM »

Several reasons.

One thing we do know..the SEC put a grandfather clause in SHO for the pre-existing naked short position as they were worried about market turmoil.  In other words, they very well knew about how big the existing short positions were..and were worried that long investors would make a lot of money-can't have that happen! :)

Here's something else to ponder, note the implications of "temporary" equals "years".

"The stock borrow program at the NSCC (a subsidiary of the DTCC) enables that entity to borrow shares from an anonymous pool, and effect delivery to the buyer. The NSCC then creates a debit in the seller's account, and holds the cash from the sale (minus commissions, of course) as collateral. It charges a fee to do that, and the program was designed to accommodate "temporary" delivery failures - but has been abused over the years, as "temporary" has no fixed definition, and some unscrupulous hedge funds think "temporary" means years."

Then we have what Doc posted yesterday:

"Nobody covers though.  Why?  Because it costs money to cover and due to corruption on Wall Street you can gain access to the funds of investors even if you sell shares that don't exist and never deliver that which you sell.  These crooks never, never, never cover preexisting naked short positions until forced to.  Aggregate levels of prexeisting naked short positions go constantly upwards because of this."

Here's another quote:

"Once a naked short position gets to a certain level the bad guys need to naked short sell all day long just to keep the collateralization requirements tolerable for an astronomic naked short position. If they merely stopped their daily naked short position then the share price will gap upwards. It’s tough to cover an astronomic naked short positon in a market that’s already gapping upwards. After covering 10% of your naked short position the price level might be at a level wherein the collateralization requirements for the other 90% might be financially prohibitive"

Here's another quote/thought to consider from a different expert-if you cover-you have to pay taxes!

"The first being that on a naked short sale, the person who has engaged the naked short sale only has to pay taxes when or if they ever "cover" that security in the open market. As stated by the SEC, it is often not the intention of these naked short sellers to EVER cover their naked short positions. If companies declare bankruptcy, the naked short sellers never cover their positions and never pay taxes on the money they pulled out on a mark to market basis"

Here's a link that covers the topic about as concisely as you can have in this rather complicated subject:

http://www.ncans.net/intro%20to%20naked%20short%20selling.htm

Naked short selling and short selling should never be used in the same paragraph, let alone the same post.  They are night and day different (for the most part).  Short selling is totally LEGAL, where naked short selling is totally ILLEGAL.  i'm sure everyone already knows this.

The MMs have to report how many shares they short of each company.  They are required to buy those shares back within a certian time period... 2 weeks, 1 month?  i don't know for sure how long, don't care. 

MMs don't report how many shares they have naked shorted, because obviously, it's illegal.  They won't say hey SEC, I broke the law everyday for the past 10 years... and again, i'm sure everyone knows this.  nobody will ever know how many naked shares are floating around, and as the doc says, MMs don't care b/c there's 99% of all other companies that will die off to make money from.  i'm not even convinced MMs would EVER cover the naked shorts, but like i said, we're talking about the legal shorting SHO list, not the illegal naked shorts.

About the SHO list.  There is no way they can short MDMN or any other company 50% of the daily volume EVERYDAY.  They have to purchase the shares they shorted within a certain timeframe or they are fined.  The volume showing the purchase of shorted shares is never there.

Example - Over the course of 1 week, if they short everyday, monday-thursday 50% of the daily volume (say 2M shares) of MDMN, they would have to repurchase 4M shorted shares above the average daily volume on friday, for a total volume of 6M that day.  You just don't ever see that volume in pinkies or the fortune 500 companies.

let's look at today's data on Apple from the SHO list - 3,193,786 shares shorted on 6,685,671 volume.  First of all, the real volume today reported by Yahoo was over 14M.  The shares short as reported by Yahoo (under Key Statistics) also doesn't even come close to this constant shorting trend 50% everyday. 

none of these numbers posted by the SHO list make sense.  i don't know how to use that data b/c i have no idea how they got it or what exactly they are counting.  the only people that use it are the guys who trade penny stocks and want to add more sugar to the kool-aid!   :P    :-*


the metallurgist,

Your synopsis is more accurate than most.  #1-not all NSS is illegal.  It's legal if done by a truly bona fide MM acting in that capacity while accessing the "bona fide MM exemption".  95% of the accessing of the BFMM exemption is fraudulent, however.  #2 MMs need not "cover" within a cerrtain amount of time.  The recently amended Rule 204 states that non-bona fide MMs must "purchase or borrow" the securities they sod short by the beginning of business on day T+4.  Bona fide MMs have until T+6 to "purchase or borrow".  Here's the catch the NSCC subdivision of the DTCC operates an "automated stock borrow program" (SBP) from which the NSCC can "cure" delivery failures during the "night settlement cycle" on the night of T+3.  They reach in to a self-replenishing "lending pool" of securities grab the # of securities that failed to be delivered and then electronically journal these securities to the NSCC "shares account" of the buying party that never got delivery of that which it bought.  Thus the FTD is "cured".  THEY THEN LET THIS PARTY DONATE THESE VERY SAME SECCURITIES BACK INTO THE VERY SAME LENDING POOL FROM WHICH THEY WERE JUST TAKEN AS IF THEY NEVER LEFT IN THE FIRST PLACE!  The same parcel of impossible to identify shares can cure hundreds of FTDs.  One investor may co-own the SAME parcel of impossible to identify shares with dozens of other investors.  The lending pool is kept in an anonymousy pooled format wherein all shares look alike and no investor owns a specific parcel of shares.  It's a hybrid between a Ponzi scheme, flat out counterfeiting, "kiting" and a pyramid scheme.

Thus the T+4 or T+6 "purchase or borrow" mandate is a total joke and all of the crooks opt for the "SBP borrow" option to gain compliance with Rule 204.  MMs never, never, never have to cover in fact they'd be insane to ever cover. 
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DonD

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Re: Medinah Minerals and Cerro Dorado - The Main Discussion
« Reply #8803 on: March 12, 2010, 12:50:56 PM »

Several reasons.

One thing we do know..the SEC put a grandfather clause in SHO for the pre-existing naked short position as they were worried about market turmoil.  In other words, they very well knew about how big the existing short positions were..and were worried that long investors would make a lot of money-can't have that happen! :)

Here's something else to ponder, note the implications of "temporary" equals "years".

"The stock borrow program at the NSCC (a subsidiary of the DTCC) enables that entity to borrow shares from an anonymous pool, and effect delivery to the buyer. The NSCC then creates a debit in the seller's account, and holds the cash from the sale (minus commissions, of course) as collateral. It charges a fee to do that, and the program was designed to accommodate "temporary" delivery failures - but has been abused over the years, as "temporary" has no fixed definition, and some unscrupulous hedge funds think "temporary" means years."

Then we have what Doc posted yesterday:

"Nobody covers though.  Why?  Because it costs money to cover and due to corruption on Wall Street you can gain access to the funds of investors even if you sell shares that don't exist and never deliver that which you sell.  These crooks never, never, never cover preexisting naked short positions until forced to.  Aggregate levels of prexeisting naked short positions go constantly upwards because of this."

Here's another quote:

"Once a naked short position gets to a certain level the bad guys need to naked short sell all day long just to keep the collateralization requirements tolerable for an astronomic naked short position. If they merely stopped their daily naked short position then the share price will gap upwards. It’s tough to cover an astronomic naked short positon in a market that’s already gapping upwards. After covering 10% of your naked short position the price level might be at a level wherein the collateralization requirements for the other 90% might be financially prohibitive"

Here's another quote/thought to consider from a different expert-if you cover-you have to pay taxes!

"The first being that on a naked short sale, the person who has engaged the naked short sale only has to pay taxes when or if they ever "cover" that security in the open market. As stated by the SEC, it is often not the intention of these naked short sellers to EVER cover their naked short positions. If companies declare bankruptcy, the naked short sellers never cover their positions and never pay taxes on the money they pulled out on a mark to market basis"

Here's a link that covers the topic about as concisely as you can have in this rather complicated subject:

http://www.ncans.net/intro%20to%20naked%20short%20selling.htm

Naked short selling and short selling should never be used in the same paragraph, let alone the same post.  They are night and day different (for the most part).  Short selling is totally LEGAL, where naked short selling is totally ILLEGAL.  i'm sure everyone already knows this.

The MMs have to report how many shares they short of each company.  They are required to buy those shares back within a certian time period... 2 weeks, 1 month?  i don't know for sure how long, don't care. 

MMs don't report how many shares they have naked shorted, because obviously, it's illegal.  They won't say hey SEC, I broke the law everyday for the past 10 years... and again, i'm sure everyone knows this.  nobody will ever know how many naked shares are floating around, and as the doc says, MMs don't care b/c there's 99% of all other companies that will die off to make money from.  i'm not even convinced MMs would EVER cover the naked shorts, but like i said, we're talking about the legal shorting SHO list, not the illegal naked shorts.

About the SHO list.  There is no way they can short MDMN or any other company 50% of the daily volume EVERYDAY.  They have to purchase the shares they shorted within a certain timeframe or they are fined.  The volume showing the purchase of shorted shares is never there.

Example - Over the course of 1 week, if they short everyday, monday-thursday 50% of the daily volume (say 2M shares) of MDMN, they would have to repurchase 4M shorted shares above the average daily volume on friday, for a total volume of 6M that day.  You just don't ever see that volume in pinkies or the fortune 500 companies.

let's look at today's data on Apple from the SHO list - 3,193,786 shares shorted on 6,685,671 volume.  First of all, the real volume today reported by Yahoo was over 14M.  The shares short as reported by Yahoo (under Key Statistics) also doesn't even come close to this constant shorting trend 50% everyday. 

none of these numbers posted by the SHO list make sense.  i don't know how to use that data b/c i have no idea how they got it or what exactly they are counting.  the only people that use it are the guys who trade penny stocks and want to add more sugar to the kool-aid!   :P    :-*


the metallurgist,

Your synopsis is more accurate than most.  #1-not all NSS is illegal.  It's legal if done by a truly bona fide MM acting in that capacity while accessing the "bona fide MM exemption".  95% of the accessing of the BFMM exemption is fraudulent, however.  #2 MMs need not "cover" within a cerrtain amount of time.  The recently amended Rule 204 states that non-bona fide MMs must "purchase or borrow" the securities they sod short by the beginning of business on day T+4.  Bona fide MMs have until T+6 to "purchase or borrow".  Here's the catch the NSCC subdivision of the DTCC operates an "automated stock borrow program" (SBP) from which the NSCC can "cure" delivery failures during the "night settlement cycle" on the night of T+3.  They reach in to a self-replenishing "lending pool" of securities grab the # of securities that failed to be delivered and then electronically journal these securities to the NSCC "shares account" of the buying party that never got delivery of that which it bought.  Thus the FTD is "cured".  THEY THEN LET THIS PARTY DONATE THESE VERY SAME SECCURITIES BACK INTO THE VERY SAME LENDING POOL FROM WHICH THEY WERE JUST TAKEN AS IF THEY NEVER LEFT IN THE FIRST PLACE!  The same parcel of impossible to identify shares can cure hundreds of FTDs.  One investor may co-own the SAME parcel of impossible to identify shares with dozens of other investors.  The lending pool is kept in an anonymousy pooled format wherein all shares look alike and no investor owns a specific parcel of shares.  It's a hybrid between a Ponzi scheme, flat out counterfeiting, "kiting" and a pyramid scheme.

Thus the T+4 or T+6 "purchase or borrow" mandate is a total joke and all of the crooks opt for the "SBP borrow" option to gain compliance with Rule 204.  MMs never, never, never have to cover in fact they'd be insane to ever cover.

Doc.  "MMs never, never, never have to cover in fact they'd be insane to ever cover. "

If this is true then what or why would they have to cover if Medinah was offered a buy out?  Or another way to say it is how do you cause a short squeeze to cover and what are some of the things that could be done to cause the shorts to cover all the shares of Medinah that have been sold and do not really exist? Is never, never, never really never? TIA
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 12:53:25 PM by DonD »
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Re: Medinah Minerals and Cerro Dorado - The Main Discussion
« Reply #8804 on: March 12, 2010, 01:15:53 PM »

Well if MM's never ever have to cover there is not going to be a short squeeze except to the extent the shorts are held by non MM's, which probably isn't the case for mdmn. If there is a buyout, those holding certs will get paid, and I assume that the MM's or the brokers they work for will have to pay the buyout price for the naked phantom stock held by shareholders in their accounts. I can't believe that they would have to actually go out and buy certs at a slight premium.

Nevertheless, if a deal is announced, the market should force the price up to fair value. No problem for the MM's they don't cover and probably continue to short though not as much. Arguably 1 - 2 cents a share is a fair value right now all things considered.
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